Curse

Revelations · May 08, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenskii

why dont we all look at the big picture for anet. since we're all worried about op skills and nerfing them and all that crap, dont you ever stop to think about buffing other skills to match up with the op skill?

This viewpoint is retarded.

We don't need more shit like Lingering Curse (make that a large chunk of the curses line), Palm Strike, Wounding Strike, Warrior's Endurance, Peace and Harmony, Mind Blast, Ether Prism, Tease, or god knows how many other skills floating around.

xDusT II · May 08, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Out of curiosity, what sort of GvG experience does the OP have? Because just skimming over the posts I don't see why he thinks his knowledge base qualifies his opinion over the opinions of the hundreds of top GvG'ers with oodles more experience than him who all unequivocally agree that any sin dominant meta in the past has been totally shitastic.

We've already had a meta where sins could shadowstep and instagib and basically fubar previously valued game mechanics. They were nerfed for a reason - everyone agreed it was retarded. I think I even remember [HaND] admitting they felt sineptitude was overpowered.

Quote:

why dont we all look at the big picture for anet. since we're all worried about op skills and nerfing them and all that crap, dont you ever stop to think about buffing other skills to match up with the op skill?

This is called power creep and all it does is promote scissors paper rock builds, where extremely powerful skills are beaten by using extremely powerful counters. See recent example Lingering Curse and Peace and Harmony.

Lux Aeterna · May 08, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

scissors paper rock builds, where [/b]extremely powerful skills are beaten by using extremely powerful counters.[b] See recent example Lingering Curse and Peace and Harmony.

This is how RPG / MMORPR balance has always been.

In the last pvp RPG I played, there was a spell which would knock a target down for 4 minutes, which I countered using a sword attack to cause instant death on the first hit.

It's annoying, really if you want balance go reinstall Tribes / Tribes 2 otherwise stop saying every meta skill needs a nerf.

Revelations · May 08, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

any sin dominant meta in the past has been totally shitastic.

We've already had a meta where sins could shadowstep and instagib and basically fubar previously valued game mechanics. They were nerfed for a reason - everyone agreed it was retarded.

This. 123456

wtfisgoingon · May 17, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

No. Just no. #1,2 and 4 are just plain wrong - and as for #3 lolsinpressure. (excluding perhaps SA)

There are so many ignorant and mentally slow minded people in this world. sigh...
First you are one of the many ignorant people who said Sins required NO SKILLS to play and also unable to pressure.
I then responded back with the method of Sin's style of pressure and which required skills to do so.

Quote:

Sins' way of pressuring and fake spiking "which requires skill, since many of you claimed Sins = no skills to play"
execute any lead/offhand attacks on a monk A
execute his lead/offhand on monk B
return to unleash his next attack following from either his lead or offhand attack to monk A
this requires a sin to remember who he attacked before, and also TIMING his remaining time limit to unleash his next offhand/lead attack/dual attack on monk A.
this is called fake spiking, as many of you said Sins COULDNT FAKE SPIKE.

Skills right there right?
But I doubt any of you hypocrites will try that and rather just use the simple War's so called ''skilled'' way of pressuring and fake spiking which is just ''tab'' ''tab'' and ''space'', no memorization required, no consequences, no timing required, just random tabbing and spacing.

You replied back saying "[email protected]"
Did you just go back on your words?
you said Sins required no skills to play, well, there you go, skills thrown right in your face, but you obviously couldn't see that because you rather use the War's so-called ''SKILLED'' way of pressuring + fake spiking. Which is really the one true 'NO SKILL'' way of playing a melee.

People ignorantly claimed that Sins required no skills to play and just 12345 everything.
I say Wars require no skills then, you think switching targets easily and randomly ''tab'' ''tab'' ''spacing'' RANDOMLY without any consequences as a War is skilled pressuring? compared to the Sin's method of pressure requiring memorization and timing?

Please, if you are going to argue, don't be bias in anyway, otherwise it wouldn't be a debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II
any sin dominant meta in the past has been totally shitastic.

We've already had a meta where sins could shadowstep and instagib and basically fubar previously valued game mechanics. They were nerfed for a reason - everyone agreed it was retarded.

actually nobody agreed except for the top GvG players who created such and some low end PvPers/PvErs like you who follow the footsteps of the top GvG player's exploited thoughts and playing style, because you haven't developed your own or realize there are alternatives.

instagib cant be blamed only to Sins, Wars could also achieve this without shadowsteps, I dont feel like retyping and looking through my previous posts in this thread and copy paste them to you. I've already explained how instagib is retarded to be Sin related only, Wars / Dervs can also achieve this -> go through this thread, I've explained it somewhere.

Celeborn10 · May 17, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

There are so many ignorant and mentally slow minded people in this world. sigh...
First you are one of the many ignorant people who said Sins required NO SKILLS to play and also unable to pressure.
I then responded back with the method of Sin's style of pressure and which required skills to do so.

You replied back saying "[email protected]"
Did you just go back on your words?
you said Sins required no skills to play, well, there you go, skills thrown right in your face, but you obviously couldn't see that because you rather use the War's so-called ''SKILLED'' way of pressuring + fake spiking. Which is really the one true 'NO SKILL'' way of playing a melee.

People ignorantly claimed that Sins required no skills to play and just 12345 everything.
I say Wars require no skills then, you think switching targets easily and randomly ''tab'' ''tab'' ''spacing'' RANDOMLY without any consequences as a War is skilled pressuring? compared to the Sin's method of pressure requiring memorization and timing?

Please, if you are going to argue, don't be bias in anyway, otherwise it wouldn't be a debate.

actually nobody agreed except for the top GvG players who created such and some low end PvPers/PvErs like you who follow the footsteps of the top GvG player's exploited thoughts and playing style, because you haven't developed your own or realize there are alternatives.

instagib cant be blamed only to Sins, Wars could also achieve this without shadowsteps, I dont feel like retyping and looking through my previous posts in this thread and copy paste them to you. I've already explained how instagib is retarded to be Sin related only, Wars / Dervs can also achieve this -> go through this thread, I've explained it somewhere.

The difference between playing a Warrior well and a Sin is like playing French Horn to Guitar Hero. Guitar Hero is relatively simplistic, focusing on only a few lines and banging on the few correspoding keys on the plastic ukelele. In contrast playing an actual instrument requires knowledge of techniques not found on Guitar Hero; double/triple/flutter tonguing, knowledge of appropriate emboucheres, alternate/half fingerings, and hand positions. (This does not include the rudiments of proper timing, posture and breath support) Guitar Hero might require timing and proper hand position but very little else.

I assume that you play Assassin primarily due to your shadowstep suggestions and that you fail to mention what the Warrior can do that the Assassin cannot (Chiizu dance, Frenzy/Rush flicker, q-knock, d-chop and Bull's). Moreover, I am under the impression that you are advocating the use of a 70AL as a frontliner which is asking for trouble.

Please name something that makes an Assassin able to survive on the frontline while giving sustained pressure and utility. Pretty much their only purpose in GvG is high mobility-based ganking. The times I have observed an SA sin in GvG they have died with frightening speed.

wtfisgoingon · May 17, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

The difference between playing a Warrior well and a Sin is like playing French Horn to Guitar Hero. Guitar Hero is relatively simplistic, focusing on only a few lines and banging on the few correspoding keys on the plastic ukelele. In contrast playing an actual instrument requires knowledge of techniques not found on Guitar Hero; double/triple/flutter tonguing, knowledge of appropriate emboucheres, alternate/half fingerings, and hand positions. (This does not include the rudiments of proper timing, posture and breath support) Guitar Hero might require timing and proper hand position but very little else.

I assume that you play Assassin primarily due to your shadowstep suggestions and that you fail to mention what the Warrior can do that the Assassin cannot (Chiizu dance, Frenzy/Rush flicker, q-knock, d-chop and Bull's). Moreover, I am under the impression that you are advocating the use of a 70AL as a frontliner which is asking for trouble.

Please name something that makes an Assassin able to survive on the frontline while giving sustained pressure and utility. Pretty much their only purpose in GvG is high mobility-based ganking. The times I have observed an SA sin in GvG they have died with frightening speed.

One question before I respond any further,
did you read all my posts in this thread?
because I had to ask that, when I got to the bolded line.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 17, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

One question before I respond any further,
did you read all my posts in this thread?
because I had to ask that, when I got to the bolded line.

Honestly, why do you keep this thread alive?

Assasins WILL NOT BE REWORKED. They are a broken mechanic and Anet doesn't have time to fix them.

Many, many people have explained to you the problem and yet you flame them, accuse them of being bias simply because they don't agree with you.

Warriors are far more complex than assasins will ever be, I don't play warrior alot - I do ocassionally for fun and although I can get kills here and there it would take alot of effort for me to be able to play one well in PvP. Assasins I can just hop on and be just as effective as other assasins without even trying.

Open your eyes and realise that Assasins don't have a place in guild wars PvP.

wtfisgoingon · May 17, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Honestly, why do you keep this thread alive?

Assasins WILL NOT BE REWORKED. They are a broken mechanic and Anet doesn't have time to fix them.

Many, many people have explained to you the problem and yet you flame them, accuse them of being bias simply because they don't agree with you.

Actually no, I am the one being flamed, I am not the one doing the flaming.

Quote:

Warriors are far more complex than assasins will ever be, I don't play warrior alot - I do ocassionally for fun and although I can get kills here and there it would take alot of effort for me to be able to play one well in PvP. Assasins I can just hop on and be just as effective as other assasins without even trying.

This type of talk is not called ''explanations'', its called your own mindless opinion. I call it mindless opinion because it contains no backup information and detailed explanation on why you claim Wars are more complexed.
Saying so doesnt make it so.

Quote:

Open your eyes and realise that Assasins don't have a place in guild wars PvP.

I call this type of comment a flame towards me. So as you can see, Im the one being flamed, I am not the one flaming. And apparently you are one of the many who are flaming me.

moriz · May 17, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

assassins are much easier to play than warriors. that is irrefutable. so far, you haven't done anything that will chance anyone's opinion on the matter. you can of course, pull your "i'm better than you hahahaha" shtick, but that still won't change anything.

you also still have not demonstrated why assassins are needed in higher level gvg. you've only mentioned buffs that will make them grossly overpowered, which does not contribute to the overall playability of the game.

as for who's doing the flaming... i'm quite sure YOU were the one who got banned for it. please try not to make the same mistake, 'cause the next one will be longer.

Celeborn10 · May 18, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Actually no, I am the one being flamed, I am not the one doing the flaming.

This type of talk is not called ''explanations'', its called your own mindless opinion. I call it mindless opinion because it contains no backup information and detailed explanation on why you claim Wars are more complexed.
Saying so doesnt make it so.

The only real place that Assassins would find a place is in GvG builds with an emphasis on movement. You keep on insisting that Assassins should have a place in GvG but really the only role that you keep on suggesting is to buff shadowsteps which even if put into effect won't bring Assassins back into GvG with a much more survivable option in Mindblast/Distortion eles.

To quote Moriz:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriz

people STILL won't use them. why? because gvg right now does not need another rogue-style character that is highly mobile. warriors and rangers have that covered between them. assassins are certainly more mobile, but that doesn't matter. that mobility won't do anything when the character using it is a glass cannon and cannot sustain damage, nor can provide consistent disruption.

Rangers are used primarily because of their interrupts which make them fairly flexible. Shockaxe brings 2 knockdowns for a total of 6 seconds and the threat of a 20 second disable after that. Assassins at their best might be good at ganking but they are bad at the stand. Their health is inferior, their armor is inferior and all the utility they offer at the stand is possibly 2 knockdowns. Being good at ganking isn't good enough to be 12.5% of a teambuild.

[Disrupting Dagger]-5/10e .25a 15r Halfrange spell. If Distracting Dagger hits, it interrupts target foe's action but deals only 1...13...16 damage. If the interrupted action was a spell, that spell is disabled for an additional 20 seconds. (copied from Dshot)

[Disrupting Stab]-Change to 1/2 second activation. (Considered change from skill disable to knockdown if a skill were interrupted)

That said there really isn't much improvement to be made to make the class better at ganking without becoming explicitly overpowered. My suggestions wouldn't do well as other classes could still perform better at the stand. I don't think that buffing Shadowsteps is the way to add depth and skill to the class. (If you need ask it's because it breaks positioning).

wtfisgoingon · May 18, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

assassins are much easier to play than warriors. that is irrefutable. so far, you haven't done anything that will chance anyone's opinion on the matter. you can of course, pull your "i'm better than you hahahaha" shtick, but that still won't change anything.

you also still have not demonstrated why assassins are needed in higher level gvg. you've only mentioned buffs that will make them grossly overpowered, which does not contribute to the overall playability of the game.

as for who's doing the flaming... i'm quite sure YOU were the one who got banned for it. please try not to make the same mistake, 'cause the next one will be longer.

asns are only thought of as more simplistic than wars if you think of things in a simple way, which of course you are doing.
i've already explained why in my previous posts, dont feel like retyping and rephrasing everything, so ill just leave it at that.

wtfisgoingon · May 18, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

The only real place that Assassins would find a place is in GvG builds with an emphasis on movement. You keep on insisting that Assassins should have a place in GvG but really the only role that you keep on suggesting is to buff shadowsteps which even if put into effect won't bring Assassins back into GvG with a much more survivable option in Mindblast/Distortion eles.

shadowstep buffs for sins only
and dagger attacks buffs will bring them back.
if shadowsteps were only asn-viable, that should not be a problem for abuse.
but you cant convert the asns into rangers as rupters, nor can you convert them into a war's style of combat.
we need hit and run as intended by the name assassin.
the problem is that you are attempting to convert and compare a hit and run asn style of play to a war's style of combat.

Quote:

Rangers are used primarily because of their interrupts which make them fairly flexible. Shockaxe brings 2 knockdowns for a total of 6 seconds and the threat of a 20 second disable after that. Assassins at their best might be good at ganking but they are bad at the stand. Their health is inferior, their armor is inferior and all the utility they offer at the stand is possibly 2 knockdowns. Being good at ganking isn't good enough to be 12.5% of a teambuild.

[Disrupting Dagger]-5/10e .25a 15r Halfrange spell. If Distracting Dagger hits, it interrupts target foe's action but deals only 1...13...16 damage. If the interrupted action was a spell, that spell is disabled for an additional 20 seconds. (copied from Dshot)

[Disrupting Stab]-Change to 1/2 second activation. (Considered change from skill disable to knockdown if a skill were interrupted)

That said there really isn't much improvement to be made to make the class better at ganking without becoming explicitly overpowered. My suggestions wouldn't do well as other classes could still perform better at the stand. I don't think that buffing Shadowsteps is the way to add depth and skill to the class.

yes, its quite obvious that the war's qualities as a frontline outshines a sin, ive already explained this on a previous post.
so, the comparison is there, why not do something about it such as nerfing mobility of the war and giving asns room to enter? you cant give wars a all-in-one-package and expect them to replace all melees because they are given all the qualities that the other two melees has AND BETTER.
this lead me to insist on buffing shadow steps, shadowsteps = mobility.
and only giving shadowsteps to sins ONLY.

the comparison is there, and people still doesnt bring up ideas on nerfing wars and buffing sins to give an equilibrium balance.

Quote:

(If you need ask it's because it breaks positioning).

this i had to quote+bold+italicize+underline because i've explained many times in this thread why the positioning argument cannot be used against shadowsteps.
i've typed up too much on how this is a wrong argument to use against sins and shadowsteps, if you read through my posts on this thread, youll find my reply to this.

Chicken Ftw · May 18, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I'm not even really going to bother with the positioning/shadowstep argument. If you don't understand by now how pushing one button and instantly being in range to unload your damage negates things like movement control and positioning, you never will. Besides, pretty much all your replies are either theorycrafting from someone who's never played a warrior or "I already replied to this earlier", when in fact you haven't. Unless you count "sins are unique" as a valid argument for shadowsteps.

Thread gives me a headache. Stuff like:

Quote:

Sins' way of pressuring and fake spiking "which requires skill, since many of you claimed Sins = no skills to play"
execute any lead/offhand attacks on a monk A
execute his lead/offhand on monk B
return to unleash his next attack following from either his lead or offhand attack to monk A
this requires a sin to remember who he attacked before, and also TIMING his remaining time limit to unleash his next offhand/lead attack/dual attack on monk A.
this is called fake spiking, as many of you said Sins COULDNT FAKE SPIKE.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. You make it sound like you think you can lead attack monk A, then lead attack monk B, then skip lead and go right into offhand on monk A. Go try that out, see how it works for ya. I'll wait.

wtfisgoingon · May 18, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

I'm not even really going to bother with the positioning/shadowstep argument. If you don't understand by now how pushing one button and instantly being in range to unload your damage negates things like movement control and positioning, you never will. Besides, pretty much all your replies are either theorycrafting from someone who's never played a warrior or "I already replied to this earlier", when in fact you haven't. Unless you count "sins are unique" as a valid argument for shadowsteps.

if you are going to argue in such a way,
why not just say all casters is a problem then? since all they need is to get in range of aggro circle and unload their damage
the asn is basically the same only with 10 al more, and requires direct melee contact to unleash damage
as said before this is a unique style of playing, shadow stepping hit and run
you cannot argue the shadow step positioning against sins because positions become blended and diluted in pvp, positions are not 100% constantly maintained <-- this is one of the things ive said over and over and over
so you cant tell me that i havent been replying back with a valid argument, its because you HAVENT read through the thread.

ive played both wars + sins in all pvp regions.
i am equally skilled in sin & war.
the only difference about me compared to the ones on here is that im NOT bias towards sins like everyone on here is.
im comparing both sides equally.

Quote:

I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. You make it sound like you think you can lead attack monk A, then lead attack monk B, then skip lead and go right into offhand on monk A. Go try that out, see how it works for ya. I'll wait.

ok scratch that one off, my mistake on that.
so the sin DOES NOT have the ability to fake spike.
one less quality compared to war.
ok so thats one more reason to buff sins and nerf wars

Chicken Ftw · May 18, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

I think that's the big mistake. You can't really compare them equally, they're pretty much crafted from the bottom up as different roles. The sin was designed to be more of an instagibber with high mobility, better in splits but less useful at the stand and low on other utility due to bar being largely attack skills, and the war was made to be more of an up-close sustained dps machine with enough utility to support a multitude of roles.

As they stand, I don't really have that much of a problem with the current shadowsteps. I still dislike their base mechanic because they basically nullify the point of pre-kiting and proper positioning to reduce damage, but they're not all that problematic in their current incarnation (mostly because most suck now.) Wastrel's might could use a bit longer recharge and I'm not fond of Augury/Shadow Fang, but other than that, meh. Sure, make them sin only. I don't really care much for Recall anyway.

The sin could use buffs to some skills to promote more diversity than the 1-2 bars people actually still run. I say that kinda warily though, since the balance team tends to be either too heavyhanded leading to brokenness, or barely touch anything to the point where it's like, why'd you even bother? What I'd really rather see is a reworking of the entire class, but that's far less likely to happen.

moriz · May 18, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

when sins were part of the gvg meta, they had these qualities:

-teleport+snare, no aftercast
-delivered ~600 damage in the space of 4 seconds

they weren't used to outposition their opponents. they weren't used to apply pressure at multiple points. they were used to blow people up every 20 seconds at the flag stand.

gvg was also played very differently back then. VoD existed, and npcs counted a whole lot more. were sins used to exclusively gank those npcs? nope. often times, in a sin heavy build, there would only be one ganking while the other one (or two in some cases) stayed at the stand and hope to blow something up every 20 seconds. in fact, ganking npcs were often used as a last minute suicide run if the sins couldn't blew people up at the stand.

gvg no longer place much emphasis to npcs. if sins are to make a comeback into gvg, they will have to perform at the flagstand. and as you can see, the only way they'll ever be used at the flagstand is if they went back to the 600 damage, teleport+snare every 20 seconds builds that existed before. it should go without saying that they would be ridiculously overpowered. that is not good for the game.

as such, sins should not, and WILL NOT, be buffed. just enjoy them in low level pvp like RA and AB. that's where they belong.

wtfisgoingon · May 18, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

even if shadowsteps were buffed back for asns, they still wont be able to gank as they used to in the BoA meta.
so i see no harm in doing so.

also, instead of not thinking and just saying to remove asns from GvG builds, you arent thinking of certain simple ways in attempt to bring them back (thats because you dont play sins, what about people who PLAYS sins?)
simple thoughts such as NERFING warrior mobility, and BUFFING assassin mobility is a good attempt
i dont see any harm in doing this, its an equal trade off to equally balance the two

and now to the ones ignorantly flaming me about my idea on buffing dash to 5 seconds FOR ASSASSINS ONLY on the ''may balance thread'', you can see why now its actually REASONABLE.

RadaArashi · May 19, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

even if shadowsteps were buffed back for asns, they still wont be able to gank as they used to in the BoA meta.
so i see no harm in doing so.

Anet has added aftercast to each one of them for a reason. Even the unused Shadow Fang so there's obviously harm in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

also, instead of not thinking and just saying to remove asns from GvG builds, you arent thinking of certain simple ways in attempt to bring them back (thats because you dont play sins, what about people who PLAYS sins?)
simple thoughts such as NERFING warrior mobility, and BUFFING assassin mobility is a good attempt
i dont see any harm in doing this, its an equal trade off to equally balance the two

I play a sin, I have for the last 26 months according to /age and I'd consider it my main character so what I'm about to tell you is from sin player to sin player ok?

You're wrong. You have no RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing clue what you're talking about.

Do you even know anything about warrior mobility? I'm surprised you don't know from all the posts that have been trying to explain it. A warrior's mobility takes some judgment, correct positioning. A sin's takes a button, followed by 23456.

The "buff" you're looking for is trying to turn the sin back to its shadow prison days where you could kill anything every few seconds, which was terrible concept in a balanced game. I don't want my favorite class to go back to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

and now to the ones ignorantly flaming me about my idea on buffing dash to 5 seconds FOR ASSASSINS ONLY on the ''may balance thread'', you can see why now its actually REASONABLE.

No one's flaming you. Flaming you would be to call you offensive names, people are merely telling you that you're wrong and providing an argument and all you do is go "are not!" without providing anything to back you up.

I didn't like to admit it either in the past, but after some recent experience (I'll admit, I still got troubles with Frenzy, so I use Flail) I can tell its true, playing a warrior takes more skill, judgment and awareness than playing an Assassin, as well as Dervish, Necromancer, Paragon, Ritualist. These classes have design flaws which I hope to see fixed in GW2 (specially assassin). Other classes that take skill to play are also Ranger, Monk, Ele and Mesmer.

moriz · May 19, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

a 5 second dash is stupid no matter what profession its limited to. there's no argument, yet you still try to. nothing should have that much mobility. you haven't done anything to prove that assassins, already arguably the most mobile profession, should have MORE mobility.